Connecting Mark IV to Cyton (including Daisy Board)

iinventiinvent
in Headware

Hello, I am very excited to try out the Ultracortex Mark IV EEG headset that i just bought. I had a couple of questions that I could not figure out based on the getting started instructions:

a) how to connect the Mark IV 16 channel to the Cyton + Daisy Board. Specifically, which wire goes into which pin
b) how will the connection be modified if i am interested only in 8 channel EEG and using the rest for EMG
c) the enclosure I see at the back of Mark IV seems to be more suitable for only a Cyton board. Are there recommendations on how to use the enclosure for Cyton + Daisy?

looking forward to your reply and thank you for your help.

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Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited May 2017
    Here is a diagram from @Dreaming_Geek,

    image

    Original thread mentioning it was here,


    You can assign any channel to any position, this is just the default map shown in the GUI.

  • iinventiinvent
    thanks @wjcroft. does one connect to the bottom pins on the cyton board or the top ones (away from the board)?
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Bottom pins closest to board. This is shown on the tutorial,


  • iinventiinvent
    thanks @wjcroft. i think i got it working :) is there a way to send you a picture of the datastreams that i am seeing to validate that they are coming out properly?


  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    An easy way to verify your EEG is to make a recording alternating with your eyes opened or closed. See tutorial. With your eyes closed you should see a noticeable increase in 10 Hz alpha on the FFT graph. This is most pronounced in the sites over the occipitals or parietals. Frontal sites will be much less if any.

  • iinventiinvent
    perfect. thanks @wjcroft. i was also looking for a tutorial on we can use the cyton to measure differential EMG at the wrist and at the throat. I can see the tutorial for the gangalion board, but not for cyton. will you be able to point me to the one for cyton if it exists.
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    http://docs.openbci.com/Tutorials/01-Cyton_Getting Started_Guide
  • aalaaala
    @wjcroft

    only discusses 8 channel board not the 16 —even the wires have different colors than of the Ultra-Cortex Mark IV.  Any help is appreciated.  thanks 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    The second comment in this thread shows the full 16 channel color code used in the default GUI layout.
  • aalaaala
    @wjcroft

    My Ultracortex Marc IV contains two of each of these colors:
    red
    grey
    yellow
    blue
    green
    purple
    brown
    orange

    where do they connect to please?

    The article references a white wire; there is no white.  It doesn't mention the grey, yellow, orange, or brown wires.  
    Thanks for your help. 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Do you see the color chart in the 2nd comment of this thread. That matches your colors listed. Number of color dot shown corresponds to channel number.

    I don't know what "article" you are referring to. I am only talking about the chart in this thread.

    Do you in fact see the diagram in this thread? Perhaps something may be wrong in your browser rendering of the PNG file.

  • aalaaala
    edited May 2017

    @wjcroft ;

    Thank you!  I see the colors. What do the numbers mean or correspond to?  The pins on each board?

    I just want to connect the colored wires to the correct pins.  


  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    The numbers on the diagram above are the CHANNEL numbers. Same as appear in the GUI.

    To map pins to channels, pins 1 to 8 are channels 1 to 8. Pins 1 to 8 on Daisy are channels 9 to 16.

  • aalaaala
    @wjcroft
    These 16 CHANNELS connect to which 18 of the 4x11 = 44 pins on the two boards, some upper & some lower, some numbered, others not.  Thanks for your patience! 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Please read and follow the tutorial, it explains this in detail.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    The tutorial explains the row of pins you use, the pins closest to the board. Ignore the colors in the tutorial, these are using gold cups and selected arbitrarily. 
  • aalaaala
    @wjcroft
    I really appreciate your trying to help me.  Perhaps I've wasted 5 days troubleshooting the dongle on win7 & your telling me to ignore the colors after producing a color-based diagram above for me to follow, leaving me with more confusion.  The tutorial is old, much older than production of ultra-cortex marc iv. 

    Many thanks again.  I will just return the product.  Have a wonderful day.  Peace ... 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Most users would go through the Cyton tutorial first, getting familiar with the way the pins and GUI works.

    Only THEN would they connect the headset using the headset tutorial.


    Sorry for the confusion.
  • aalaaala
    Thanks again for the explanation @wjcroft and for your taking the time to help.  I'm initiating the return shortly.

    Still would like to leave a constructive feed back to you and this amazing community: 
    Please create a tutorial for the Ultracortex IV --a little effort can remove so much unnecessary frustration.  Take this (or leave it) from a technical writer who designed manuals for 20 years.  All the best ... 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    You can't skip the steps in the Cyton tutorial. They explain how the pins work and how to use the GUI.

    Yes, it could be possible to make a specific tutorial that combines all the Cyton setup info with the Headset setup info. But the OpenBCI project evolved in those particular steps: Cyton, then Ultracortex.

    I urge you to consider reading through the Cyton tutorial, it will answer your questions about how to use the pins on the Cyton and Daisy board. There are also threads which cover connecting the Daisy here on the forum. Such as,


    Regards,

    William

  • aalaaala
    @wjcroft
    Thanks again, William.  Please know I appreciate your company and product so much. 

    I honestly hoped for a straight answer: connect this color-coded wire to this particular pin.  I still don't have this info.  

    "How they work, communicate with the GUI, and how the GUI works" -in my opinion- is a different intellectual tutorial --not made to extrapolate the "should-be" straightforward "assembly" instructions.  

    With respect
  • AndreBCIAndreBCI San Diego
    aala,
    I totally understand the frustration. Unfortunately this is not a "turn key" product. It surely takes a good amount of commitment to get it all up and running. but... 
    I also would encourage you to be patient and look at the bright side: these guys (Open BCI team) have done an incredible job in assembling the most affordable EEG system on the planet. They are a small team, operate on a slim budget and cannot be expected to provide the kind of products/service/instructions you can buy from GE or Siemens (for >10x the $). 
    Let's cut them some slack. I also believe that constructive input and questions from users like you and me will continue to help them improve the product and the supporting material.
    Regards,
    Andre
  • aalaaala
    AndreBCI
    I totally agree with the amazing promise they're bringing to this monopolized space!  I'm so grateful.

    Would you please, Andre, tell me where each of these 18 color-coded wires goes to which pin of the 44?  It's a 3 minute comment costing less time than these back and forth.

    If you do so, I will volunteer my time to create a youtube video helping the community in return.  


  • AndreBCIAndreBCI San Diego
    aala,
    I hope this helps (and most importantly, I hope I am correct...). Please note that the specific associations of channels, pins and 10-20 locations discussed here is one that matches the GUI configuration. Once you start here, you can later change it as need.
     image
    image
    image
    image
    image

  • unetunet
    I'd be interested in having an answer to the original poster's c point :
    'c) the enclosure I see at the back of Mark IV seems to be more suitable
    for only a Cyton board. Are there recommendations on how to use the
    enclosure for Cyton + Daisy?'

    Any idea? How do you do it?
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    There is THIS, lab bench style enclosure,


  • ajebulonajebulon South Korea
    Hi there, I'm new in this BCI thing, especially about the wiring. I have this Ultracortex Mark IV (Pro assembled) and Cyton + Daisy. I followed wiring schematic from here and here. I just want to make sure about the wiring.

    Currently I just connect:
    1. channel 1-8 to Cyton (N1-8P)
    2. channel 9-16 to Daisy (N1-8P)
    3. left earlobe to Cyton's SRB2 (bottom)
    4. right earlobe to Daisy's SRB2 (bottom)

    My question is, is that all? Do I need to connect BIAS pin of Cyton and Daisy to somewhere?

    Because I read in Cyton tutorial here that we need to connect both BIAS and SRB2 pin.
    In the article, part V.2, it says that:
    - white electrode (connected to earlobe 1) should be connected to SRB2
    - black electrode (connected to earlobe 2) should be connected to BIAS
    That infers that both SRB2 and BIAS are important, therefore needs to be connected somewhere.

    Thank you for your assistance.
    Good day.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    @ajebulon, hi. Yes you always want to connect Bias (Ground) in any montage. Just use any of the Bias pins on mainboard or Daisy, they are all the same. Many montages place the Bias connection at a midline location, such as AFz, to spread the common mode injection signal.

  • ajebulonajebulon South Korea
    @wjcroft, thanks for the reply. 

    I'm currently connecting SRB2 of both Daisy and Cyton (using Y connector) to left earlobe. And connect the BIAS pin of Cyton to the right earlobe (BIAS pin of Daisy is not used). Is it OK? 

    If I have to use the midline location (such as AFz) like you said, I need to add another electrode at that location because as I remember there is no unused electrode on my ultracortex mark IV (I don't currently have it with me now, I will check it later).
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    You can place Bias anywhere on the head. All 4 of the Bias pins on mainboard and Daisy are the same signal, no need for a Y cable with Bias lead.
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