Random high intensity signals on the electrodes

edited August 2016 in Cyton

Hello,

I am trying to record the signals using openBCI V3 32-bit board. During the recording session, I get random high intensity peaks on the voltage readings. This sometimes affects the frequencies also. The message I get is "OpenBCI_ADS1299: apparent sampleIndex jump from Serial data: 70 to 72 (1)" and so on. I get many of these peaks sometimes and sometimes I don't get any. when this happens the red light on the dongle flickers which is otherwise stable solid red. I am just wondering what is causing this. Thanks

Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited August 2016
    Vaibhav, hi.

    It could be that the radio link (RFduino Nordic bluetooth/gazelle) between the mainboard and dongle is encountering interference from other Bluetooth devices. Can you try operating your equipment in different environments and see if that affects the lost packets you are seeing?

    The RFI / EMI interference may also be leaking into the EEG signals you are seeing that are showing noise bursts. AC power lines and wall wart power packs should also be kept at a distance.

    Do you see any different behavior with using the gold cups and paste vs your ultracortex?

    With the new firmware it's possible to easily change radio channels. That might improve things somewhat, but the fact that you're seeing noise on the EEG indicates a noisy electromagnetic environment. This same microwave range is used by various equipment such as phones and wireless. It is not generally an issue unless you are in an unusual situation.

  • Right now I am using ultracortex. I'll check with the gold cup electrodes. I'll try the things u said and report back. Thank you
  • I tried doing this at different location but it still happens randomly. Is there any way that this could be caused by the battery pack? Because battery pack is very close to the board when I use it.
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    "Can you try operating your equipment in different environments and see if that affects the lost packets you are seeing?"

    Battery pack location should not affect packet drops. Your other thread with the spectrograms looks fine?

    Do you have a screenshot of what the noise looks like on the GUI raw EEG graph / Console output?
  • @wjcroft

    Sorry for the delay. I was busy with the assignments.

    I have tried to operate the equipment in different environments. This just happens randomly, I can't find a particular pattern or situation.

    I have taken few screenshots of how the missing packets look on the RAW EEG graph.

    In the image below you can see that packets lost are not making much of a difference on the RAW EEG graph but in the second image there is a significant amount of noise on the EEG graph
    image

    Image 2: More noise with the packet loss

    image
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Vaibhav, hi.

    Have you tried any tests with another laptop or OS? This looks like Linux? It's possible that the FTDI COM port driver or USB hardware could be responsible for some of the packet loss. A test with another laptop and even another OS could eliminate this possibility.

    Another thing you can try is reflashing your mainboard and dongle firmware, but I'd first go for the alternate laptop test. Your firmware is generally working, other than the packet loss issues.

    The mystery are the noise bursts we're seeing on multiple channels. Are you sure there is no movement artifact or EMG, muscle activity at those points? Still, noise on the channels should not be correlated with packet loss. I'm not understanding why these are happening together.

    Mentioning Joel @biomurph here for reference.

    Your other thread with the spectrograms seems to be working fine?? What are the circumstances when the noise appears? What is different?

    http://openbci.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/785/ultracortex-not-seeing-alpha-waves-at-o1-o2

    Best,

    William

  • edited September 2016
    @wjcroft

    I am on Windows 10 x64 machine. I have tried re-flashing the firmware on to the openBCI board. No change with this. I will try the FTDI drivers and if that doesn't work then I will try other laptop with some other OS.

    At first I also thought that I may be clenching my teeth or the headset may be moving for some reason. Then I consciously made sure that headset was not moving and fits snugly on my head and also that I am sitting completely still. Then I took the screenshots which I posted in my previous reply. So, I am quite sure that its not the movement artifact or the EMG.

    As for the spectrograms, when the artifacts on the EEG are small in amplitude then they don't make much difference on the spectrogram but when they are large in amplitude like in the image 2 in my previous reply, they do cause a dark line going from 0Hz all the way till 60Hz on the spectrograms at the specific times the artifacts appear.

    I will try to reproduce these and if I get them I will post the screenshots.
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited September 2016
    Asked previously:

    "Do you see any different behavior with using the gold cups and paste vs your ultracortex?"

    When you recorded your spectrograms on that other thread, were you also seeing packet losses there as well? How often do the EMG-like noise bursts happen? Your spectrograms covered several minutes with no bursts.

    The fact that your figures in this thread show simultaneous noise on almost all the other active channels, could indicate an issue with your reference lead being intermittent or poor connection. Again, the gold cup comparison test might shed some light. I assume you are using the ultracortex with the supplied silver chloride ear clips. When using gold cups, use gold cups at all locations, including ears.

    Another factor affecting latency and responsiveness, is the CPU utilization of the laptop. Run your tests with no other apps active, no file transfers or wifi going on simultaneously. Etc.

  • edited September 2016
    These noise bursts happen every time when there is a packet loss. The packet loss happens randomly. I haven't noticed any specific pattern or situation that causes this.

    Before moving to the ultracortex I was using the gold cup electrodes for all locations including ears and this still used to happen then that's actually one of the reason I moved to ultracortex.

    When I recorded the spectrograms on the other thread I was not having the packet loss that's why the spectrograms look smooth.

    I'll try this with no other apps running and also the WiFi disabled and post the changes if any. The strange thing is when there no packet loss, the setup I am running is the same. Windows 10 x64, same laptop, WiFi on. They just happen randomly.
  • cfausncfausn Rochester NY
    I've noticed this problem as well. If you think it's some sort of interference issue you can upgrade to the latest firmware and change the channel of your board and radio. You can also try fiddling with the BAUD and poll rate if you think that may help. Here's a link to the latest firmware and here's my radio configuration utility so you can fiddle with it. Let me know if you notice any changes, as I've been having this problem too and would like to get to the bottom of the problem!
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Colin, hi. So if the problem is happening on BOTH the original and new firmware, wouldnt that imply a hardware issue?

    If this is a radio channel interference problem, then moving your OpenBCI and laptop to another location, away from potentially interfering sources such as other wifi / bluetooth devices, should show an improvement? But Vaibhav has already tried this, he stated. Have you tried such a test? Were you seeing this in the Brooklyn lab, or just at your current location in Rochester?

    As we discussed on the other thread the Baud adjustment in the new firmware only fiddles with the serial link between the dongle FTDI chip and the dongle RFduino. Does not seem like it would have any effect on these packet errors; have you experimented with changing the baud, does that help your errors?

    Besides Colin and Vaibhav, I have not seen any reports on the forum of these type of excessive packet errors and noise on all channels. Are you seeing the same noise on all channels simultaneously as Vaibhav. Such noise on all channels would imply an intermittency with the SRB2 reference lead.

    Regards, William

  • cfausncfausn Rochester NY
    I'm getting just random bursts of dropped data as Vaibhav noted above. I'm also having issues occasionally where the board sends a ~1.5 uvm burst and then settles to 0 on all channels and won't stream actual data. Restarting the GUI fixes that. I wonder if it has something to do with hardware or the new GUI...
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Mentioning Joel @biomurph and AJ @pushtheworld . Colin, were you seeing these bursts in the Brooklyn lab, or is this at your current location in Rochester? Old or new firmware? From your and Vaibhav's experience it sounds like it happens with both. Have you tried streaming with BrainBay, neuromore, or OpenViBE, to eliminate the laptop app as the cause? I have not seen these noise bursts myself with BrainBay or BioEra.

    William

  • cfausncfausn Rochester NY
    They've been happening randomly since I've been working over summer. It's the new firmware. I haven't tried using BrainBay/OpenVibe, but I didn't notice them when I was working on the C Driver so I'm fairly certain it has something to do with the GUI/Board Firmware interaction. I should note though that I didn't notice these problems on the old firmware/board that I worked on before getting my own. 

    Another issue relating to all this I've noticed is that sometimes during those dropped packet bursts the GUI will freeze and stop streaming.
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited September 2016
    Colin, OK, that's very informative. I'd like to get some thoughts from AJ @pushtheworld , if he might have some suggestions or experiences that are relevant. 

    But I thought @vaibhav2912 is running the original firmware; so that would point more towards the GUI?

    re: freeze of the data stream. Now I have seen this, as have others; there are some other threads on the forum for that. This happens with the original firmware, but I believe was fixed in the new firmware.


    William

  • Hi just saw this and am happy to give some thoughts.

    Colin @cfausn please make sure you are on the latest release of the 2.0.0 firmware. https://github.com/OpenBCI/OpenBCI_Radios/tree/2.0.0 There was a problem I think solved in rc6 or rc7 where a ring buffer was added on both the Host and Device RFDuino to prevent dropped packets. But you are correct if, the packets can't be removed fast enough problems can occur so higher baud rate helps.

    vaibhav2912 the biggest reason for this problem you screen shot is distance. For best results I would try to stay under 1.5 meters. Also did you change your input buffer size for FTDI? Please be sure to stay close though, really, that's the easiest way to solve the problem. You can also try running with the new firmware. 

    @wjcroft this can occur because of CPU load too for sure, especially on single threaded GUI/serial-parsers combined with a computer that reduced it's FTDI buffer size. If a program, say the Processing GUI, is getting held up, it's really easy to see how a packet could get missed when the serial buffer is only 64bytes long and not even two packets can fit in there. 
  • Something crazy happened today.

    Too much noise in the signal. It worked for first 200 or something seconds but then this happened:

    imageimage

    It has never been this crazy. The most I have seen is may be 10 lost packets at most but today it was over the top.

    @pushtheworld I am within 1.5 meters of the radio. 
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