When prices trop for EEG modules, buddhist monks start to meditate with EEG caps, if they find a sponsorship. It is time to start this challenging project, Kris.
And all who suffer and want to be free from suffering start to meditate with EEG caps, if there is enough evidence that this method works, can be reproduced and has a scientific basis.
Dr. Jeff Tarrant's Neuromeditation protocols can be operated with 2, 4, or 19 channels. So are much more applicable to home users who want to practice regularly and inexpensively.
Even if 128 channel equipment was available, setup of the electrodes for each session would quickly get tedious. As it would take likely more than a half hour each day just to get all the impedances in range. There are some faster setup large channel systems, using the EGI saline nets. But these systems cost many tens of thousands. See earlier posts in this thread.
Thank you, William
there are people like Arnauld Delorme who can gain out of a Muse headband data which can be used to write a paper, for instance when he compares brain waves when eyes are closed to brain waves, when eyes are open with the Muse headband. There are many variants of this setup which aren t published yet. When someone wants to build a 128 channel eeg device to practise meditation at home and wants to gain meaningful scientific data out of it, he finds a way.
The practical approach to meditation neurofeedback at home, uses the minimum number of channels that are easily applied in a short amount of time. 128 channels at home for neurofeedback training is not practical because of HUGE cost, application time of electrodes (including impedance checking and normalization), consideration of cap cleanup time for 128 channel systems, availability of existing protocols for low number of channels, etc.
thank you for sharing your opinion, William.
On the website of Greentek sensors it says, the gelfree cap "is perfect suitable for routine EEG up to 2 hours without losing signal quality" (specifications): http://www.greenteksensor.com/eeg-caps/gel-free-eeg-electrode-cap/
This is quiet short. Did you get longer recording times, Kris?
When sitting while a session, the impedance usually stayed low until the end, but definitely increased a bit. When laying down, for some reason the impedance at the end was always much higher, not sure why. No overnight recording - I don't think I could sleep with the cap on.
When you lay down, the saline water eventually runs upward in the sensor and the impedance trops. Maybe you should practise to use your EEG cap in the diamond position, Kris:
Richard Davidsons work might be difficult to understand for many. If you are interested in the topic happiness and meditation, read the books of Matthieu Ricard „Happiness“ and „Meditation“. He is a buddhist monk, best selling author, and he participated in Richard Davidsons research studies about meditation.
Most elastic EEG caps I'm aware of, are uncomfortable after an hour or even less. Part of the reason is that they press into the skull from all sides. And the skull consists of many interconnected cranial bone plates that naturally move in and out along the 'suture' lines. By very small amounts, but flex nonetheless. Such elastic caps constrict this natural rhythm, which has correlations also with movements of cerebral spinal fluid.
This is a misunterstanding. Kris mentioned troubles with the imedance when laying down with his EEG cap. It is about the fluid in the EEG sensor, not in the spinal fluid. It is only a speculation what might happen. A Greentek cap with a thin tube to the sensors which maintains the sensors humidity would be desirable, so that recording time could be extended to the infinite.
These are comfortable for a short period of time, but not for hours. Your head feels like it is in a vice after a while. And taking off the cap gives immediate relief.
The cranial bones / plates I mentioned previously are the reason. Your skull is not one solid bone, but interlocking plates that actually subtly 'breathe' by flexing a tiny distance in and out at regular intervals. This same rhythm is known to couple into the CSF cerebral spinal fluid, that bathes the brain and spine. When this subtle flexing is 'locked' into place for long periods, it is exceedingly uncomfortable. I speak from first hand experience here.
...so that recording time could be extended to the infinite.
Again, you have not had direct experience with elastic EEG caps. So are making assumptions that are incorrect.
Thank you, for sharing your experience, William, you are really an expert. To be precise, I meant to extend the recording time of the Greentek Gel free cap in some way. Two hours of recording time is too short for my purpose.
By the way, Matthieu Ricard, who was one of the participants in Richard Davidsons experiments, has also a PhD. In molecular biology. He is really an extraordinary monk. He translated many texts from these ancient meditation practices to an easy understandable language, and describes methods how to obtain a healthy and a happy mind. But I still miss a EEG device for my daily meditation practise which delivers data which can also be used for scientific purposes. There is the Muse headband, but more electrodes would be better. Also for practising meditation, the prefrontal cortex is of interest. Eventually a EEG device with a high density of EEG sensors only in the prefrontal cortex, and nowhere else, would be sufficient to reproduce Richard Davidson experiments.
Comments
Price for an ECG module is 2.70 USD on Aliexpress:
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/32860471968.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4c0a235064HRfH&algo_pvid=a08b51c7-2ad2-4317-b296-29e0d99165b0&algo_expid=a08b51c7-2ad2-4317-b296-29e0d99165b0-0&btsid=0ab6f82115941282966477155e3558&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
Price for an EEG module is 33.83 USD on Aliexpress:
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/32999922405.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.16cf7320AsUGHt&algo_pvid=f39d8719-1125-48d5-8b6a-4c5b2a907fda&algo_expid=f39d8719-1125-48d5-8b6a-4c5b2a907fda-2&btsid=0ab6f82115941288000301483e3558&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
When prices trop for EEG modules, buddhist monks start to meditate with EEG caps, if they find a sponsorship. It is time to start this challenging project, Kris.
And all who suffer and want to be free from suffering start to meditate with EEG caps, if there is enough evidence that this method works, can be reproduced and has a scientific basis.
Dr. Jeff Tarrant's Neuromeditation protocols can be operated with 2, 4, or 19 channels. So are much more applicable to home users who want to practice regularly and inexpensively.
https://www.neuromeditationinstitute.com/
Even if 128 channel equipment was available, setup of the electrodes for each session would quickly get tedious. As it would take likely more than a half hour each day just to get all the impedances in range. There are some faster setup large channel systems, using the EGI saline nets. But these systems cost many tens of thousands. See earlier posts in this thread.
https://openbci.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/13455/#Comment_13455
The ECG system mentioned earlier is only a SINGLE channel, and would be impossible to replicate 128 times.
https://swharden.com/wp/2019-03-15-sound-card-ecg-with-ad8232/
Regards, William
Thank you, William
there are people like Arnauld Delorme who can gain out of a Muse headband data which can be used to write a paper, for instance when he compares brain waves when eyes are closed to brain waves, when eyes are open with the Muse headband. There are many variants of this setup which aren t published yet. When someone wants to build a 128 channel eeg device to practise meditation at home and wants to gain meaningful scientific data out of it, he finds a way.
The practical approach to meditation neurofeedback at home, uses the minimum number of channels that are easily applied in a short amount of time. 128 channels at home for neurofeedback training is not practical because of HUGE cost, application time of electrodes (including impedance checking and normalization), consideration of cap cleanup time for 128 channel systems, availability of existing protocols for low number of channels, etc.
thank you for sharing your opinion, William.
On the website of Greentek sensors it says, the gelfree cap "is perfect suitable for routine EEG up to 2 hours without losing signal quality" (specifications):
http://www.greenteksensor.com/eeg-caps/gel-free-eeg-electrode-cap/
This is quiet short. Did you get longer recording times, Kris?
The longest I usually do is around 1 hour, not more.
Did not do also overnight recordings? Was the signal lost in the morning?
When sitting while a session, the impedance usually stayed low until the end, but definitely increased a bit. When laying down, for some reason the impedance at the end was always much higher, not sure why. No overnight recording - I don't think I could sleep with the cap on.
Thanks.
When you lay down, the saline water eventually runs upward in the sensor and the impedance trops. Maybe you should practise to use your EEG cap in the diamond position, Kris:
Sorry, the impedance might rise when the saline water poors back in the sensor.
Richard Davidsons work might be difficult to understand for many. If you are interested in the topic happiness and meditation, read the books of Matthieu Ricard „Happiness“ and „Meditation“. He is a buddhist monk, best selling author, and he participated in Richard Davidsons research studies about meditation.
Most elastic EEG caps I'm aware of, are uncomfortable after an hour or even less. Part of the reason is that they press into the skull from all sides. And the skull consists of many interconnected cranial bone plates that naturally move in and out along the 'suture' lines. By very small amounts, but flex nonetheless. Such elastic caps constrict this natural rhythm, which has correlations also with movements of cerebral spinal fluid.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cranialsacral+movement
This is a misunterstanding. Kris mentioned troubles with the imedance when laying down with his EEG cap. It is about the fluid in the EEG sensor, not in the spinal fluid. It is only a speculation what might happen. A Greentek cap with a thin tube to the sensors which maintains the sensors humidity would be desirable, so that recording time could be extended to the infinite.
Not misunderstanding. I've actually done many QEEG sessions with Electro-Caps,
https://electro-cap.com/index.cfm/caps/
These are comfortable for a short period of time, but not for hours. Your head feels like it is in a vice after a while. And taking off the cap gives immediate relief.
The cranial bones / plates I mentioned previously are the reason. Your skull is not one solid bone, but interlocking plates that actually subtly 'breathe' by flexing a tiny distance in and out at regular intervals. This same rhythm is known to couple into the CSF cerebral spinal fluid, that bathes the brain and spine. When this subtle flexing is 'locked' into place for long periods, it is exceedingly uncomfortable. I speak from first hand experience here.
Again, you have not had direct experience with elastic EEG caps. So are making assumptions that are incorrect.
Thank you, for sharing your experience, William, you are really an expert. To be precise, I meant to extend the recording time of the Greentek Gel free cap in some way. Two hours of recording time is too short for my purpose.
By the way, Matthieu Ricard, who was one of the participants in Richard Davidsons experiments, has also a PhD. In molecular biology. He is really an extraordinary monk. He translated many texts from these ancient meditation practices to an easy understandable language, and describes methods how to obtain a healthy and a happy mind. But I still miss a EEG device for my daily meditation practise which delivers data which can also be used for scientific purposes. There is the Muse headband, but more electrodes would be better. Also for practising meditation, the prefrontal cortex is of interest. Eventually a EEG device with a high density of EEG sensors only in the prefrontal cortex, and nowhere else, would be sufficient to reproduce Richard Davidson experiments.