Can I replace the wet electrodes in EEG Electrode Cap by dry electrodes?

HanNguyenHanNguyen Vancouver
I will need the EEG Electrode Cap in order to record EEG of hockey players while they are on the field (it can sit underneath the helmet). The OpenBCI cap (as shown on website) already has wet electrodes in it. May I buy it with the wet electrodes replaced by dry ones or may I change the electrodes by myself after buying the cap? If I can change the electrodes by myself, what is the dimension of the holes so that I will design the electrodes with that specific size?
Thanks a lot.

Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Han, hi.

    I have doubts that any EEG cap, bands, whatever, would work under a hockey helmet; or any other kind of sports helmet. The padding in these helmets fits very tight around the head. Such pressure on hard electrodes would be painful; especially on comb electrodes, which have pointy tips.

    The electrode cap shown in the shop does not have replaceable electrodes.

    You can find other EEG elastic caps with hole in them (holes only). These types of caps are designed to fit removable electrodes. So such a cap might be possible to fit the FRI electrodes. Image shows the cap with holes, called g.GAMMAcap, from g.tec. 


    image

    It's possible you could use the FRI comb electrodes with this. But remember, in any EEG electrode system, head motion will create movement artifacts in the EEG. Since athletic team members are constantly on the move, you are not going to get stable EEG from such a setup. Furthermore, dry electrodes are much more sensitive to movement artifacts than gel based system. Because the skin pressure is constantly varying. With gel, electrolyte bridges the gap between skin and electrode.

    The only stable EEG you will get is with the person seated and being relatively quiet, no head motion. Even jaw motion (talking) will disturb the EEG because jaw muscles run in the temporal area.

    Regards,

    William

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    This is FRI's cap, for use with their comb electrodes. However I don't believe this system exerts enough pressure to be used dry. The holes in the combs and cones are for gel injection.

  • I agree 100% w/ @wjcroft.

    Are they really going to play a hockey game? I am going to guess you are not part of a university b/c no human use IRB would allow this. There are major safety concerns. Any conventional electrodes placed under the helmet would get jammed into the head in the event of a crash. And lets face it, crashes are a key part of hockey!

    The problem is that all conventional COTS dry electrodes are hard - based on either metal, or flexible plastic. These are already uncomfortable - but pose a serious safety hazard if jammed into the head.

    Also - you can expect hat the data will be terrible. Motion artifacts galore. I hope you have a good analysis plan for dealing with the noise.

    Now... if you are adventurous... there may be a solution. How much hair do your subjects have?

    If you have access to a basic lab, you could design and mold your own carbon nanofiber silicone polymer electrodes, so that they are soft and squishy. We have published the formula here:

    https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8513428


    Note, importantly, they will require adding (painting?) a layer of AgCl onto them to stabilize the electrical connection to the scalp. We have previously molded them into a cylinder, kind of like a pencil eraser, so that they fit he pods made for gel, and just carefully moved aside the hair to make a connection.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    David, thanks for sharing with us your continuing research at USARL.

    Will USARL explore commercializing these? I think whatever company you work with could expect substantial demand for such an electrode with documented excellent performance. Mentioning @Conor, @produceconsumerobot, @KZurn, @jbzurn, @openbci.

    Regards,

    William
  • We will gladly partner with any company who wants to do it, and help you do it - we do tech transfer all the time, and collaborate with private companies often. But ARL is not in the business of "making stuff", or making money. We do foundational research that allows other people to make great stuff.
  • HanNguyenHanNguyen Vancouver
    Thanks for you suggestion, ratlabguy (or David?). My team is part of UBC. Yes, they are really gonna wear EEG caps under their helmets while playing hockey. My team knows that it is hard and no one has done that, but that is why we should try to make it possible.
    I have read your journal article before, and we are trying to make our own electrodes based on that (molding and carbon nanofiber silicone polymer). We made the electrodes to have comb shape so that they can get through hair and we will test different height and dimensions of the spikes to find the optimum one.
    I could not find the exact percentage of carbon fibre to give optimum performance in your article though (only at least 4%). Do you know the exact number for that? We plan to test that too.
    Which custom EEG cap did your team use? How did you connect the electrodes to the wire? The article mentioned that you 3D printed metal button to the top of the electrode so the electrodes can be connected to snap connectors?
    It would be nice if I can ask you more about your research.
    Thanks a lot,
    Han


  • Our experience is that anything over ~5-6% filler is pretty stable. If you haven't seen it already, there is more information on the formulation process and mechanical properties here:

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0189415

    re: filler concentration, it's really a matter of how you want to trade off the mechanical stiffness/pliability for conductive stability. 8% filler for example is pretty firm - more like a pencil eraser - and pushing the boundaries to get the material into a mold for curing. But it is the most stable.

    If you want to make geometries with "fingers" for penetrating hair.... good luck. This is not an easy task. The problem is that you need pretty substantial stiffness in order to push hair out of the way and make good contact, but the workability of the material at that level of stiffness is challenging. And you then are into the domain of not bein gas comfortable due to lack of pliability. In our experience you can easily make electrodes that are soft and comfortable, but do not get through hair well, or make them so they get through hair, but comfort goes way down. The sweet spot between these two is a magical unicorn.

    Regarding how we mounted hem - we designed a little cylinder "cup" device that had a small hole in the top, then fit a standard 2-part snap connector to it going through either side of the hole, and crimped it together. Then painted it in silver paint. With this we could then slip either our CNF-PDMS electrode in cylinder form into the cup, or use a HydroDot in the cup.

    I have uploaded a copy of a poster from SfN last year here

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333631171_Quantifying_performance_of_pliable_dry_polymer_electrodes

    There are some images there that might help a little bit with the visualization. Wit hall of the interest in the polymer formulation, we will probably set up a page on Open Science Framework detailing our work and papers so others can duplicate it. Heck, maybe I should write an article for here....


  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited June 2019
    Here is an inline version of David's SfN 2018 poster. You can right click on it (with Chrome), and select "Open Image in new Tab", to see a full resolution version. Or just left click to open in current tab.

    image
  • HanNguyenHanNguyen Vancouver
    Thanks a lot, David and William.
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