QEEG neurofeedback for stress conditions?

hippoyellhippoyell Southern California
edited February 2017 in General Discussion
Hey guys,
my wife has been dealing with postpartum depression and anxiety for over a year. She has recurrent thoughts of harming our child, and has seen a couple of psychiatrists about it and done their one-on-one therapy as well as tried a few different SSRIs (psych has no worries about her acting on these intrusive thoughts). The one-on-one therapy made her feel better for a few hours afterwards, but didn't seem to have any lasting benefit and the SSRIs have either not helped or given her side-effects such as not being able to articulate herself and having a hard time recalling even very common and basic words. I have a history of 4 concussions, 3 with resulting loss of consciousness, and I find I don't deal with stress very well at all anymore. I'm angry, or on edge way more of the time than is justifiable and routinely wake up a few times each night during sleep, during the day I feel mentally and physically tired. We're both 32 years of age.

I became interested in QEEG after listening to Dr. Andrew Hill on the Joe Rogan Experience. However, I called Dr. Hill and found out it will cost around $7,000 for just her (with buying the $3,750 equipment as she's too far away to commute with a child three times a week to his office) and nearly $11,000 for both of us with the equipment. This is pretty much pricing us out, which I'm obviously pretty bummed about because I believe there's potential to improve our lives.

On this site (OpenBCI), I see all the different parts sold separately, and many available options for some of the parts and programs. I'm not sure what setup we'd be wanting, how difficult the user interface or designing a treatment protocol for ourselves would be, etc.

Is there any way someone could simplify this, give input on how the software is used, how much time is required to understand it and develop a treatment protocol, how much money we'd be looking at total, etc? I'm sorry, I'm not any sort of a programmer. We both work in healthcare.

Thank you for your time,
Micah

Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Micah, hi.

    The best option for home neurofeedback training is with Pete Van Deusen's Brain-Trainer system. This is currently setup with Pocket-Neurobics hardware. There is a significant learning curve, as you would expect. However there is also a Yahoo discussion group forum for community support. Pete's organization also offers coaching.


    The developer for Bioexplorer (the software used in Brain-Trainer protocols) now has a driver (interface) to our Cyton board, and will support Ganglion soon. This would allow you to use OpenBCI hardware with Pete's protocols.

    The QEEG systems you are referring to are another significant increase in complexity and cost. They utilize hardware that costs 6 to 10 thousand dollars. Along with "normative QEEG databases" which can compare the client's brain map to population norms. And then derive protocols which attempt to bring the map back into the normative range. As you say, this type of training is expensive. Currently Pete's system is the best you can do for home training.

    William

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Many neurofeedback protocols and trainers, incorporate MBSR into their programs. Very high return on the small amount of time invested,


  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited February 2017
    Here's another angle. I saw on your username line at the top "Southern California". You say you are far from Hill's office. Yet there are a huge number of neurofeedback practitioners in S. CA. Especially around the larger cities. QEEG guided neurofeedback is typically the most expensive. There are some others that have especially good results for stress and concussion, yet do not involve the complexity and expense of QEEG based normative database approaches.

    The Othmer Method,

    http://eeginfo.com/

    NeurOptimal,

    https://neuroptimal.com/

    HPN High Performance Neurofeedback (several names for this)

    http://hpnconcussionmanagement.com/
    http://nflplayersbrainsmatter.com/
    https://microcurrentneurofeedback.com/
  • hippoyellhippoyell Southern California
    Thank you so much for the thoughtful, comprehensive answers.
    I have started looking into the sources you've included.
    Thanks again,
    Micah
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Can Mindfulness Increase Our Resilience to Stress?

    [Youtube video below]

    Neuroscientist Richard Davidson and clinical mindfulness expert Jon
    Kabat-Zinn on how mindfulness training can lead to greater resilience to
    stress.



    Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn invented the term MBSR and pioneered training programs in clinical settings. These days however you can find online programs that take just a short time to learn. Then you can do your daily mindfulness practice at home for say a half hour a day. Effects start to be felt immediately. And deepen as time goes on.

    Dr. Richie Davidson is well known for his research on brain states of meditation and contemplative practices. And has worked closely with the Dalai Lama and other major meditation teachers.

  • gareththomasnzgareththomasnz auckland
    edited January 2018
    I have to point out that all scientific & professional
    recommendations state 19 data channels is the bare minimum for qeeg
    & neurofeedback

    Any system that uses 2, 4 or even 16 channels is inadequate for clinical neurofeedback

    Its important to remember that openBCI, openEEG & emotiv are not designed for neurofeedback training.

    Some systems switch the EEG channels so a mini-qeeg can be performed but again this degrades the quality

    The more channels & the faster the signal processing the better

    This
    in the open source department leaves you currently with open ephys,
    hackEEG & EEG64 as the only systems with enough channels for
    clinical neurofeedback

    But they also lack safety features - being open source you could make your own isolation hardware

    As for doing NFT with the low cost low channel gear - waste of time & bad advice - stay away from "bro neuroscience"
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Hi Gareth,

    You seem to have very strong opinions. MANY neurofeedback practitioners use 2, 4, channel equipment. I use OpenBCI frequently with the excellent BioEra VPL (Visual Programming Language) app. And BioEra is the basis for the Othmer's Cygnet, Len Ochs' LENS, and several others.

    QEEG 19 channel is wonderful if you have the budget for the equipment. I have used Brainmaster Discovery amps in the past with Neuroguide.

    Judgmental remarks such as "bro neuroscience" are not productive and do not match reality.

    William

  • gareththomasnzgareththomasnz auckland
    I would definitely not pay for neurofeedback from somebody with a 2 or 4 channel machine

    Just look into the medical literature - 19 channels is the absolute minimum recomendation 

    hackEEG & EEG64 are way cheaper to build than purchasing a clinical grade device but as I said you would need to check up on the isolation

    If you want substantial results, want to run advanced software then you need decent hardware

    I also could criticize the pricing on many of these systems which is phenomenal in many cases

    So we can agree to disagree


  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    These three clinical neurofeedback systems use only 2 channels and are in use in hundreds of licensed clinician's offices.

    [LENS]

    [Cygnet]


    This 5 channel system has wide acceptance in athletics performance applications,



  • gareththomasnzgareththomasnz auckland
    edited January 2018
    Yes but there are literally hundreds of different clinical EEG systems with more than 24 channels used by tens of thousands of clinics and hospitals world wide

    People should apply due diligence



  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Your statement: "As for doing NFT with the low cost low channel gear - waste of time & bad advice" -- is complete nonsense.

    This thread was started by someone looking to do QEEG at home. Since that is impossible (given current costs), other posts in the thread offered some home training possibilities. Or other training systems in wide use that are lower cost than QEEG guided neurofeedback.
  • gareththomasnzgareththomasnz auckland
    Perhaps you should bother to look at the information in my posts which you have just contradicted

    Anyway I have made my point & I am correct so I wont post in this thread again
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited January 2018
    OpenBCI is looking into the possibility of adding an optional third ADS1299 chip, in addition the 2nd one already on the daisy board. This would bring the total channel count to 24. Thus enabling 19 channel applications (such as Loreta source localization.)

    HOWEVER, even with the hardware capability, to do QEEG, you need software such as Neuroguide or BrainDx, which contains the carefully maintained normative database metrics. (Which allow Z-score training.) These are very expensive packages, costing thousands of dollars, and/or involving annual subscription fees, also very expensive. These companies also only sell to licensed healthcare practitioners.

    So with hurdles such as this, it's unlikely that QEEG neurofeedback will soon show up in the home training field. (Even with experimental prototype boards such as EEG64 or hackEEG.)  Thus the need for affordable and proven options.

    William
  • khofstadterkhofstadter Colchester, U.K.
    Just looking for clarification:

    Can we do qEEG and Loreta with the OpenBCI Cyton now (Aug 2018) with opensource software?

    thanks! k




  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Kris, hi.

    Loreta should be possible, not live but from a recording. Most neurofeedback Loreta and QEEG use 19 channels (but can be reconfigured). So the source localization would not be as accurate.

    I know of no free / opensource QEEG databases at the moment. All of these are currently very expensive clinical packages. Because the time and effort to manage the normative databases and analysis software is costly. Not sure how that could ever become free / open with these constraints. A lot of the databases for BrainDx, Neuroguide, etc., were first created when those were still publicly funded research projects. It's kind of snarky how the professors involved, then took that data the public paid for, and made it a commercial for profit product. Yes there are high maintenance costs, but an open research version could fuel more university projects.

    Regards,

    William
  • khofstadterkhofstadter Colchester, U.K.
    Thanks William,

    At the moment I would only use 8 channels with the Cython, then maybe 16 later. 

    Jeff Tarrant, whom you kindly suggested, uses Brain Master with neuro-feedback protocols: standard and sLoreta.

    I'd like to do NF with the OpenBCI therefore it would be great t if there was a way to add Loreta in real time.

    Do you have any experience with the LORETA KEY software package (PC only)?

    I'll do some more research...

    many thanks, k







  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    I toyed around with free downloads of Loreta in the past. Not much recently. I do know of one guy who is working on a real-time viewer,


    His name is Slobodan Jovanovic, owner / engineer of Silence Vision.

    One issue with his current package is that it requires Bioexplorer to drive the input. Since the OpenBCI driver for Bioexplorer is kind of in limbo land, I suggested to Slobodan that he have a version of his package that accepts LabStreamingLayer input. He is considering it. Please lobby him further with that idea.

    I was in touch with him a few months ago, not sure the current state of his packages.

    It takes some special skill to do live source localization. The algorithms have to be fast and efficient. The Key Loreta is fine for analysis from a static recording.

    William

  • khofstadterkhofstadter Colchester, U.K.
    thanks William, I'll explore. k
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Earlier this spring I asked Slobodan what source localization code / algorithms, his realtime implementation was based on. He told me it was MNE, which he then converted to C# / Visual Studio, WIndows. So MNE might be a good alternative to Loreta. Not sure if it comes with live map out of the box.

    https://martinos.org/mne/stable/index.html

    MNE is Python based. So since C# is compiled code, might explain how Slobodan was able to get his version faster.

    Please let us know if you get anything going with OpenBCI and Loreta or MNE or ...

    We might want to start another thread on the forum specific to OpenBCI and source localization. Feel free to do so.


  • khofstadterkhofstadter Colchester, U.K.
    Just saw your reply, thanks. 
    This is on the list, however, if I start something, it will be in SuperCollider, where more of my code related to BCMI is atm. 
    I'll keep you updated. 
    Thanks William, k
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