Getting equipped and back into neurofeedback after 17 year lapse

emileemile variable
edited March 2017 in General Discussion
Back in 1999-2000, I purchased a Lexicor NRS-2D EEG unit and Biolex software to treat a friend who was having panic attacks [developing her ability to shift herself into SMR when she intuited that she was on the slippy slope that could lead into a panic attack].  This was a simple technique that struck me as the equivalent of a horse getting rid of an unwanted rider on its back [anxiety] by going through thick brush or in a tight passage between trees that would allow the horse passage but not the rider [shifting into a band that the anxiety couldn't sustain in]. 

Ok, she 'trained up' real well and never had a recurrence, and I put my Lexicor in the closet [I still have it] and haven't dusted it off for 17 years [the Biolex software runs from the DOS prompt].  Now, I have a similar requirement with a daughter who has been having periodic anxiety attacks that lead to 'psychotic episodes' [treated with pharmaceuticals so far] and would like to 're-equip' and re-educate myself so i can help bring her up to speed so that she can do her own neurofeedback therapy [i.e. when the shadowy, formless anxiety that leads to her obsessing on summoning up 'rise above it all' control powers (and then onto a psychotic episode) arrives, having some neuro-shifting muscle/traction to shift into SMR and scrape the formless anxiety monkey off her back].

I am very much a blank page re where the DIY neurofeedback technologies have gone over the past 17 years.  Where would some good sources of info be found to;

(a) lead me to the names of ready-to-use, economical but effective DIY neurofeedback hardware and software set ups [specific recommendations would be welcomed]. my set up 17 years ago was about $2000 and I would hope to be in that ballpark or under this time round.

(b) links to forums where there are DIYers working on similar neurofeedback therapeutics.

(c) i would welcome any comments on stuff re this undertaking that I may not be aware of having been 'absent from the scene' for 17 years, but which I should be aware of.

thanks!

Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Easiest entry point will be with Pete Van Deusen's Brain-Trainer protocols using Bioexplorer and Cyton or Ganglion. Both boards are now supported by Larry Janow's new release of Bioexplorer. 
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited October 2017
    You can also use other amps with Bioexplorer. Pete has sold Pocket Neurobics equipment for a long time. No Lexicor driver though.


    Larry Janow has OpenBCI device support underway, but yet to be added to that list.

  • emileemile variable

    Thanks for your suggestions. 
    Just to check myself on this, ...

    are these the approximate costs to ‘get up and going’ on that configuration or is
    there something else;

     

    Brain-Trainer protocols bundled with Bioexplorer                   $575.

    Ganglion                                                                                 $200.

    EEG Mark III headset                                                             $250.

    Electrodes                                                                               $
    30.

    Paste                                                                                       $
    20.

     

    I can see that the brain-training seems to have many more
    variables and combinations than I recall from 17 years ago [I went from texts which
    had a half dozen different training approaches matched to a half dozen different needs and spent
    time in informal personal discussions with practitioners and also in a mixed
    practitioner-DIYer forum]. 

     My sense is that growing sophistication in the training
    approaches, and the possibly increased fear of liabilities may make it tougher,
    today, for the new entrant to plug into shared info on particular symptom needs matched to potentially beneficial training approaches.

    p.s. thanks for the note on the missing info on the cyberrevolution website [which i was wondering about] and the pocketneurobics option ($600-$3000).

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited March 2017
    You don't absolutely need the headset, gold or silver cup electrodes work fine for 2 to 4 channel trainings that Pete uses.

    You may want to invest in the Cyton vs. Ganglion. The EEG chip in the Cyton has better signal quality, less noise than Ganglion. But both are usable with Bioexplorer. Cyton also offers excellent value over the PN amps. Though more 'Maker' oriented.

    Although a plus for PN Q-Wiz is it's direct connection to Electro-cap, which makes for faster assessments. Pete uses a 21 site (Oz and Fpz) special cap for assessments. Some kind of adapter might work with Cyton. Q-Wiz is only 4 channel so does 4 at a time.

    re: NFB for anxiety. You may want to checkout the approaches of the Othmer Method (Infra-Low Frequency work), or NeurOptimal (non-linear dynamics, 2 channel training). These are not DIY, but do offer consistent resolution of trauma and other PTSD / DTD situations. These are not conventional 'band' trainings, but rather guiding the brain into more stability and resilience. 

    Also look at Sebern Fisher's work, who started with the Othmer's in earlier years before the ILF took off.

  • emileemile variable
    wow!  thank you so much!
  • newdendritenewdendrite USA
    @wjcroft

    You've made several references to support of openBCI hardware by Bioexplorer.  I've been a Bioexplorer user for 10+ years, so tonight I visited the Cyberevolution site and downloaded the latest version shown there.  After a new install of the software, the device selection menu shows no options for openBCI hardware.  Since the creation date for the applications in this latest version is 2014, I suspect it has not been updated.

    Where are you finding a version of Bioexplorer that works with the Ganglion and Cyton?

    Thanks,
    Michael
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited October 2017
    Contact the developer (Larry Janow) through the Cyberevolution website. Beta test versions should be available at this point. OpenBCI is in regular communications with both Larry and Jarek Foltynski (BioEra author). Both these platforms will support OpenBCI devices, although they may not be listed publicly yet on the respective websites.
  • MilanMilan
    Hi Emile, I am facing the panic attack in my family as well. I would
    like to try the neurofeedback treatment in your way. While I am a
    newcomer in the field, it will be great if you can share your
    experiences. more details, maybe I will buy the same equipment and
    same software version to collect and share the data ?? Please leave me a response. Thanks, Milan
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Link below is not neurofeedback, but is a great adjunct and will facilitate significant progress even alone. Reishi mushroom is one of the most powerful 'adaptogens' and normalizes many hormonal and neurotransmitter functions.


  • emileemile variable
    hi milan,

    my experience with neurofeedback as a remedy for panic attacks was back in 1999.  my friend was very frightened by them and she was unable to walk or move about normally until they passed.  she had seen a female performer (in Quebec) in a television interview claim that neurofeedback had resolved her panic attacks. i was lightly familiar with neurofeedback being done for a variety of psychological complaints in dallas and since there were no such neurofeedback services where we were, i made some contacts with neurofeedback practitioners and got into the network, so to speak where i was given guidance in getting equipped and getting myself up to speed to help my friend 'train' and get some traction to spontaneously shift her neural activity pattern so as not to be 'drawn into the vortex' of panic attack. 

    i had no medical or psychological/psychiatric training or qualifications but i was a seismologist and knew a lot about 'waves'.  the people in neurofeedback practice were amazingly open and helpful at that time [today people may be more paralyzed by fear of legal liability] and i bought a Lexicor NRS-2D EEG unit and Lexicor's Biolex software running under PC-DOS and received a lot of guidance on NF training, including from a well-known NF pioneer in dallas.  because my friend and i were undertaking this in Quebec, outside of any psychologist support or etc. they suggested we should just do the simple SMR training; i.e. so that my friend could develop the ability to shift into SMR range and thus out of the neural activity associated with the panic attack.

    everything proceeded without a hitch and my friend 'trained up' very rapidly.  we did about six sessions in total over about a month elapsed time, and already by the second or third sessions, her ability to 'shift into SMR' was showing itself very clearly [i was sending the graphs of the sessions to my dallas contact and getting his thumbs up on what was going on]).  following this NF training, she had no recurrences (i moved to the west coast in 2001 and don't have an update after about 2002).  she was trying other things like homeopathy at the same time so this so this was not a 'controlled experiment').

    in spite of the 'uncontrolled experiment' that this was, my experience, in all of its nuances, confirms, for me, the valuable influence of NF in being able to orchestrate neural activity on a level below that of 'thought management' where non-rational emotional dynamics are ongoing, and thus to have good potential for developing a pre-thought-and-language means of reshaping neural activity and emotional dynamics.

    as far as the equipment set up i used is concerned.  i am persuaded, for my own current undertaking, that it may be better to start with new equipment and software.  The Lexicor unit 'still works' but the Biolex software is extinct and while there is available software that still supports it, NeuroGuide, it costs $3400. and so I am currently exploring the best way to 'get back in'.  i don't believe that the magic was in the particular hardware and software.  also, i appreciate so much the open culture that helped me get into NF back in 1999, that 'open source' options are high on my list.  I am trying to investigate the cyton-bioexplorer combination but i have sent emails to CybeRevolution and get no responses, so am currently 'on hold' yet anxious to get going.

    so, milan, that's a summary of my experience, and as you can see it is a very one-off thing as i had one 'patient' and one set of equipment and one series of training sessions and can't guarantee that the NF was the one thing that fixed the panic attack problem.  but my intuition is that neurofeedback offers us powerful potentials to reshape our pre-thought-and-language emotional activity patterns, and that's why i am trying to get back into it re a different need/application.

    good luck with your efforts!
  • MilanMilan
    Hi Emile, WOW your story is full of human nature, Thank you for sharing, I deeply appreciate it. We were and still are so unprepared to handle panic attacks. I will follow the neurofeedback idea. Thank you once more. Milan
  • arty_garty_g
    Hey!

    What version of BioExplorer does support the OpenBCI? The latest version available for download on their site is 1.6.3.650. I installed it and couldn't find OpenBCI in "Add device" dialogue.

    I've been using BioEx with NeuroBit Optima 2 channel amp for quite some time. And then i participated in the original kickstarter campaign. Does the original OpenBCI which was sold on the kickstarter work in BioEx?
  • newdendritenewdendrite USA
    I'm also a long term BioExplorer user.  Despite several posts on this
    forum claiming that BioExplorer supports openBCI protocols, I've been
    unable to find any confirmation.

    The current web site and
    downloads show no evidence of supporting openBCI.  Emails to the
    developer have produced no response.  It's not just the two of us,
    either, arty_g.  Others who are well-connected have been unable to
    unearth any confirmation, either.

    If the openBCI developers can
    supply any tangible evidence, I hope they will do so.  BioExplorer
    support would be a real advantage for some users, but if it's not
    happening then the current misleading claims are just slowing down
    progress on other alternatives.

    Best regards,
    Michael
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited June 2017
    Arty and Michael, hi.

    Thanks for your comments. Implementing new drivers sometimes is a lengthy process.  :-)

    We've exchanged several emails with Larry Janow in February. (And possibly later, that's the last one I saw.) Who at that time said: "The Cyton driver is almost complete, and hopefully I’ll have time to start the Ganglion driver next week." I just sent him a new email today asking if the Cyton might be available for beta testers. Perhaps as a link just posted here and not on his download page.

    On the BioEra side Jarek has Ganglion and Cyton support as of version 4.023. Cyton is listed below, I think the manual page is just needing minor updating to mention Ganglion.


    neuromore is yet another promising alternative. But their sales model seems to be in flux. Originally free, and now listed as $50 per month. There may be educational, research, etc. other pricing models under consideration. It's Cyton only.


    Regards,

    William

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    LabView is another VPL supporting Cyton; with a deep DSP toolkit. As far as I know, the original versions of NeurOptimal (by Val Brown) were implemented in LabView. So it can do realtime signal processing necessary for neurofeedback as well. At a steep price point if you are not academic.

    http://openbci.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/274/labview-openbci-toolkit

    But clearly Bioexplorer has the most community support via Pete Van Deusen's Brain-Trainer protocols. Both Pete and Larry have expressed interest in supporting the OpenBCI community.


  • arty_garty_g
    William,

    Sending emails to BioExplorer developers is a very futile endeavor :)

    I am a bit puzzled by the codenames (Cyton, Ganglion, etc). Can you confirm that the original openBCI board that was available as a reward on a kickstarter campaign should be supported in BioEx as soon as Larry finishes beta testing?

    Yeah, BioExplorer has the most community support. I have all the designs Pete has to offer and have done my own modifications to those. The problem is that i own only a 2-channel amp (which is often times enough, i agree). I wanted to try 4 and 8 channel designs and openBCI 8 channel board seems like a good way to do that with BioExplorer. 


  • arty_garty_g
    edited June 2017
    Michael,

    Yeah, i've participated in the original campaign with hopes that OpenBCI support will be added in BioEx. Still waiting :)
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Art, yes the original Kickstarter offered TWO boards, both of which use the same serial port protocol as the current Cyton. One of those boards used an 8 bit microcontroller (Arduino based ATmega). The other was a 32 bit processor, PIC32 / chipKIT. Only the latter boards are being sold (and firmware updated) currently; as 'Cyton' to distinguish from the Ganglion 4 channel board. However the ATmega boards still use the Cyton serial protocol, so all 8 channel boards should be working with Larry's new driver.

    Best regards,

    William
  • arty_garty_g
    William,

    Thanks for clarification.

    Well, just have to wait till Larry finishes the driver.
  • emileemile variable
    has larry finished the driver that will allow Bioexplorer to run on Cyton yet?

    to wjcroft or anyone, i appreciate all of the info i have received here but i am way behind where i hoped to be on getting going on neurofeedback again.  i understand that Bioexplorer with Cyton may have been the easiest entrypoint but it seems as if Larry Janow's work on the driver has stalled.  I have no idea if the work is going on, and no-one at cyberevolution answers emails on systems under development [others in the thread have had the same experience as me on this] so, as someone else in this thread suggested, it may not be realistic to wait on Bioexplorer.

    can anyone suggest the next best re-entry option for me.  my needs details are on the top of this thread.

    any advice from those with knowledge of working systems can give me would be much appreciated. i am just a user who lacks the expertise to modify hardware and software.

    thanks,

    emile
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    Emile, hi.

    Larry emailed us on October 5 saying, "I have [Cyton] data displaying nicely in BioExplorer and hope to have a beta available in a few days." So we expect that download link to be available very soon.

    Sorry again for the delays involved. Larry actually has to support a lot of platforms other than just OpenBCI.

    As mentioned previously Jarek has had BioEra available with both Cyton and Ganglion support, for some time.

    William
  • newdendritenewdendrite USA
    William,

    Is there any word from from Larry to OpenBCI on support for the Ganglion?

    Does Bioexplorer support include support for the wifi shield?

    Thanks,
    Michael
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited October 2017
    Michael, hi.

    I'll post here as soon as I hear from Larry. I did send him an email on October 16. As far as I know, the Cyton support will appear first. Have no idea of the timeframe for Ganglion. He does have the Ganglion hardware and I think has the driver underway. It's a bit tricky with C++ Bluetooth Low Energy support on Windows platforms earlier than 8.

    re: Wifi Shield with Bioexplorer. I believe Larry knows about the shield, but he'll likely progress in the ordering: Cyton, Ganglion, Shield.

    Regards,

    William

  • emileemile variable
    william, thanks for the updates!

    emile
  • arty_garty_g
    Hi, people!

    Any news from Larry?
  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    In short, no word.

    http://openbci.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/1235/getting-started-with-brain-training#latest
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