Remote Neurofeedback - Searching for optimal configuration

tamalotestamalotes San Francisco Bay Area

Hi,

We have a small Neurofeedback practice in N. California.
We use BioExplorer with Neuroamp and custom protocols.
With the COVID, we have been doing some remote neurofeedback but is difficult to scale due to the cost of building a full-blown new system for remote users.
It seems like OpenBCI hardware can be a great alternative - however the software to do NF is kind of tricky - so looking for some community insights.
It seems there are really only 3 options:

  1. Bioera: Quite active project and price is reasonable in first impressions. Windows Defender blocked my download - so I been hesitant to install it, though. Also, it is not clear to me if it is possible to create custom protocols. Do protocols need to be purchased from Bioera (or Brian-Trainer)? If you can't create custom protocols this is not an option for us.

  2. BrainBay: While this is open-source; the project doesn't seem quite active. No software updates in more than a year... It also doesn't seem to be supporting BrainFlow - which will limits hardware support. Bottom line: It is not clear to me if OpenBCI hardware is supported. It is not listed as supported hardware on the BrainBay website.

  3. Nuromore: It seems like Cyton is supported but not Ganglion. I have read that there are some issues with the sampling (250 vs. 256) so, is it correct to assume that Ganglion will never be supported? The business model of neuromore is intriguing as it asks for a 15% royalty for commercial use. I guess a full contract needs to be negotiated - but does someone has experience with this path?

Now, has someone tried "migrating protocols from BioExplorer to any of these alternatives? I guess is too much to ask - but it will be awesome to have some sort of file converter from BioExplorer to Bioera, BrainBay or Neuromore...

Finally, today we use movies for the feedback. It seems like that is not supported at all. Feedback has to be audio or a "game". Is that a correct assessment of my exploration?

Again, thanks for any insights.

Comments

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited December 2020

    Hi Tam,

    BioEra is becoming a standard in the clinical neurofeedback field. It is already the basis of a number of commercial clinical packages: Cygnet, Brain-Trainer, LENS, etc. Support by developer Jarek Foltynski is superb, often providing solutions within hours of a support email. There is also a user forum. I have not had any issues using Windows 10 and Microsoft Defender. If there was an issue it would be a false positive. You can also run any binary / installer URL through Virustotal which checks with about 50 different AV suites.

    https://www.virustotal.com/gui/

    BioEra is MUCH more feature-full than Bioexplorer, as you can see from the Manual:

    http://www.proatech.com/be/manual.html

    The concept is similar to Bioexplorer. You are working with data flows, element blocks connected by lines in the GUI. Yes, you can entirely create your own custom protocols. You can even read-protect them if desired.

    BrainBay DOES support Cyton and Ganglion, but the project as you notice is not very active. Feature set of element blocks is less than BioEra or Bioexplorer, but still useful for smaller scale projects.

    Neuromore currently supports only Cyton via the serial port protocol. But we expect eventual support of Ganglion via the Brainflow library. I have not been following their licensing model closely. It has changed over the years. The project is open source. Most users can use it for free.

    File converters will never exist, the packages are just too different in the nature of the element blocks or configuration settings. BioEra does support screen dimming of videos as feedback, I'm pretty certain Brain-Trainer is doing this.

    You might just explore Brain-Trainer, since they are in process of transitioning from many years on Bioexplorer to BioEra. Brain-Trainer also supports remote training. I have not run their new BioEra based system with OpenBCI, but it should work.

    https://brain-trainer.com/

    Regards, William

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    A downside for Pete van Deusen's Brain-Trainer BioEra based system, is that the designs are apparently locked and cannot be viewed or modified. Maybe that will change in the future. But for learning and customization purposes, it's sad.

    I do know a recent customer who initially bought the BioEra version, but was disappointed in the same way: he could not modify or learn as he could with the Bioexplorer based system. So he switched his order from Pete's BioEra designs to the older Bioexplorer designs.

  • tamalotestamalotes San Francisco Bay Area

    Thanks, @wjcroft!
    Great insights; really appreciate your time writing this down.
    It is quite interesting to learn that BioEra is becoming the de facto "under-the-hood" engine for a lot of the solutions out there.
    With that said, there is something I still do not understand:

    • You mention that users can create their own designs with BioEra - which is quite important for me (we currently use protocols from Dr. Kaizer).
    • So, what exactly is the downside you mention as been "locked"? In other words: What designs are locked down, then? I was incorrectly reading the "lock-down" as not being able to create your own custom protocols and having to buy one from BioEra or Brain-Trainer. Clearly I was misunderstanding this - but I still don't understand what designs being locked means here...

    On your second comment you mentioned a customer switching from BioEra to BioExplorer.
    Do you know what amplifier the customer is using? I ask because AFAIK BioExplorer does not support OpenBCI hardware and that will never happen as the key developer has officially retired.
    Again, my goal is create a "simpler/cheaper" NF system that I can ship to patients in order to do remote neurofeedback.
    My current setup, based on Neuroamp + BioExplorer, is too expensive (at least for me) to replicate multiple times and ship to patients.

    Finally, what would you say is the reason that Neuromore has not gained further momentum. Their UI seems quite decent and they have some interesting functionality. Granted, I have not tested their software with an amplifier yet. I will download BioEra and give it a try.

    Once again, thank you so much!

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    So, what exactly is the downside you mention as being "locked"?

    Maybe a better term is 'execute only' / 'locked for viewing'. BioEra lets the design creator 'lock' the design from viewing or alteration. But it still can run. I believe this is how Brain-Trainer distributes their designs. If you are using your own BioEra, you can distribute the design files as you wish, readable or not.

    what amplifier the customer is using?

    He was using Pocket Neurobics Q-Wiz, so could use either the old designs or the new BioEra designs. He chose to go with the old for a number of reasons. As I understand it the BioEra Brain-Trainer platform is relatively new, compared to the decade(s) of development that went into Bioexplorer version.

    I'd be interested in hearing if you use the DMN training mentioned here:

    https://www.kaiserneuromap.com/services/neurofeedback/
    https://www.kaiserneuromap.com/dnt/

    I've seen Kaiser QEEGs in the past. They are quite distinctive looking. How many channels are needed for the DMN training? Does it require full QEEGs regularly? What equipment do you use for that?

    re: neuromore

    I would say it looks quite impressive from the videos and some aspects. But really does not approach the depth of BioEra. But on the other had it is free, so give it a whirl. Then again, BioEra is relatively inexpensive and uses a simple dongle, so no complicated licensing procedure or tying you to some percentage arrangement.

    William

  • tamalotestamalotes San Francisco Bay Area

    Hi William,
    Answering your questions:
    For the QEEG we use Discovery (19 channels).
    QEEGs are for assessment purposes and done at the beginning and end of a treatment.
    For neurofeedback training we use only 2-channels. (And currently we use the Neuroamp for training)

    Thanks

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Are you doing Kaiser's DNT (DMN) training? Any write-ups on this? Without 3D Loreta source localization, it's seems only likely to measure the rear DMN network hub at Pz (Precuneus / Posterior Cingulate). Especially given only 2 channel training.

    What has been your results with the DNT? Did Kaiser create your Bioexplorer designs, or you? His QEEG generates some treatment protocols? Do you have a website?

  • tamalotestamalotes San Francisco Bay Area

    Yes, we are doing Kaiser’s DNT training.

    For some patients DNT is pretty successful.

    BioExplorer designs are created by Dr. Kaiser and yes, the QEEG generates the treatment protocols.

    Website: https://www.florescounseling.com/

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Thanks, I'd like to read more in depth on the DNT training. How could I do that? Is there a paper, website, background info?

    What are goals of DNT, and how is that achieved? What would be a 'typical' DNT protocol? What are the selection criteria for DNT clients? If you have information that you'd like to email instead, send to croft at lightfield dot com.

    If Kaiser created the Bioexplorer designs, he'd likely need to be the person converting them for BioEra. There is a substantial learning curve for BioEra, it's more complex than Bioexplorer.

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