Is the EEG data any good at all ???

roborobo Bavaria, Germany
edited August 2020 in General Discussion

the post failes with simply a time stamp printed :-(
This is the most buggy forum software i have come across in the last 10 years.

Comments

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany
    edited August 2020

    I am still improving on my android app https://robosoft.de/eegcenter but as i do not get feedback of some openBci testers i have to think about cloning your Daisy shield, attach an ESP32 and add the spi readout to your Wifi shield firmware..

    But i am still not confinced at all that any BCI is able to generate some usful data

    Here i mock about the Emotiv Epoc/Insight
    youtu.be/BlUDB3KZ3wE?t=1334

    I say the minimum must be the consistent detection of four different mind states within 5 seconds:

    idle , left, right, forward.

    and not youtu.be/LZPZFeOOerA?t=135

    Really, if this is not possible then the entire bci community is a fraud.

    And when in this Demo by Conor Russomanno he only shows the usual artifacts and concludes with "As you can see i can get 8 channels of eeg data up and running under 30 seconds." - Sorry, this is fraud, because "eeg data" implies "brain state data" and not "eeg artifacts"
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=agV1B2l-QLw

    And the top of stupidity is the 'mind blowing' internet of FIVE human brains:

    youtu.be/LZPZFeOOerA?t=167

    See the criticism in my top video on Emotiv.

    I have not searched entire Youtube but within 10 years of bci - if there is not a demo of this idle+left+right+forward ONLY by thinking - then we are wasting our time

    Roland, the little physicist,
    ideas welcome :-)

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany

    Okay, here three distinct mind states with the 14 channel Emotiv Epoc: youtu.be/WBRkXpZ7mWs?t=1057

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Really, if this is not possible then the entire bci community is a fraud.

    Frankly I find your critical tone in this thread, as off-putting.

    Below is a well presented list of accepted / traditional BCI paradigms. Note that "Mind commands" such as "idle, left, right, forward" (as you mention) are NOT on the list. Motor Imagery is on the list, but this is not the same as the mental commands you list. Do you understand the difference and why that is?

    https://www.gtec.at/product/bcisystem/

    re: forum reliability. I'm the forum administrator, and in general the Vanilla Forum software we use has an excellent reputation and is quite reliable in my own experience. Sorry you encountered a glitch, but these are sometimes due to local area network traffic situations out of our control.

    Regards, William

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany

    Yes i sound like an asshole. That is intentional. I can't stand all this hypocrisy.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    This is a cVEP (code based Visual Evoked Potentials) speller from Mindaffect. Which is not over-hyped.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bci/make-100-create-your-own-brain-computer-interface

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Last I heard, Mindaffect will be releasing an open-source version soon.

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany
    edited August 2020

    (Thank you for responding !)

    _"SMART HOME CONTROL ... with different control elements (TV, music, windows, heating system, phone). This allows the subjects to move through the environment. Users can perform tasks like playing music, watching TV, opening doors, or moving around. Therefore, seven control masks are available: a light mask, a music mask, a phone mask, a temperature mask, a TV mask, a move mask and a “go to” mask."

    Sorry, I don't believe a word of www.gtec.at/product/bcisystem/

    And thanks for the Kickstarter link. My bot did not detect that campaign.. So please explain this to me. An ADS1299 costs $50, the Dasiy pcb and an ESP32 each $5. So why is the 4 channel OpenBCI Ganglion + 4 TMSI-electrodes pledge 749 € ???
    And again sorry, of course i put the P300 in the eeg artifacts trick box. Yes the trick works but that is not reading a mind. It is just another cheap trick like EMG artifacts. And it all is so stupid. It would be far easier and for more reliable to simple detect eye blinks with a $2 web cam.

    I really fear that this is all a big fraud. I mean, i simply ask for some youtube videos where you actually succeeded to read a mind: Eyes closed, no muscles, only thinking. Is that really so much to ask for ?

    You see i try to identify two mind states with my app. But it is not looking good. Maybe a total 5% difference in the 5 wave bands to start with. But with neurofeedback i might be able to push this to 20-30%. Still i fear that this is only whishful thinking.

    So i ask what you have already achieved.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    g.tec's mention of Smart Home Control is using SSVEP. Do you know what SSVEP is? What they state is entirely true. g.tec is a medical electronics company in Austria, with a stellar reputation among BCI and neuroscience people.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Really I don't want to argue with you. You are apparently in a bad mood this morning. Please take your acid remarks elsewhere.

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany

    As i said, i always come as an asshole. So of course i have to remark that you did not read why i do so..
    Of course i had not yet seen this SSVEP short cut. But no physicist is fully stupid. And you should already have understood that i will put 'visual evoked potential' in the same cheap trick box.
    I never said that tricks do not work. But if all you have are cheap tricks, then at least i am wasting my time with these useless bci devices.
    That link to the 3 mind states of the Emotiv Epoc is already somehow better. The cheap trick there is to identify emotions that have nothing to do with what you want to achieve but map to different brain regions. Totally useless for reading what is inside the mind -

    and that is what you all always pretend to do !

    peace !

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    There is nothing 'pretend' about BCI's and neuroscience. It just takes an open mind and some investigation as to what is out there and working. I thought that the g.tec link (previously provided) would enumerate the established BCI paradigms. "Mind reading" is not on the list. However affective BCI is a large and growing field, with many papers.

    https://www.gtec.at/product/bcisystem/
    https://www.google.com/search?q=affective+bci
    https://www.google.com/search?q=eeg+emotional+valence

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany

    Actually i only thought to ask a simple question: What have you OpenBCI achieved that would fit into my definition of a brain computer interface.

    So you agree that you have by now answered this question.

    Maybe you can also answer my second question, why your OpenBCI is so fraudulent expensive. I mean, usually open source is meant to be the opposite of 'totally overpriced'.

    Greetings from Germany, yes Hitler too was an asshole, so i obviously am not proud to behave like an asshole.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    Maybe you can also answer my second question, why your OpenBCI is so fraudulent expensive. I mean, usually open source is meant to be the opposite of 'totally overpriced'.

    Wow. The acid indigestion must be really bad for you today. ;-)

    Open Source Hardware projects have to support many aspects that open-source software projects do not face.

    https://makezine.com/2012/02/14/soapbox-the-unspoken-rules-of-open-source-hardware/
    https://openbci.com/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/1232/build-it-yourself-category-under-hardware

  • roborobo Bavaria, Germany
    edited August 2020

    Ah let's continue tomorrow (or never).
    The problem i have with the 'toy world' is that noone tries to understand the other one. I mean, you can not be so stupid as to not see what i am targeting. So you could already answer my answer of your answer. Instead you only defend yourself with words that i of course already expected. This is leading nowhere.

    And sadly, that is exactly the direction you all have choosen since you were six: hipocrosy :'(

    Good night.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA
    edited August 2020

    Please, see if a good nights sleep can temper your temper. No one is forcing you to purchase OpenBCI equipment. There are many EEG headsets / headbands available now. You could just as easily slam all of those companies. Who for the most part have not open-sourced their technology. So should deserve even greater scorn, huh?

    BCI was NEVER claimed to have "mind-reading" abilities. In fact the EEG neurofeedback field began in the late 1950's with the alpha enhancement work of Joe Kamiya. Neither BCI nor neurofeedback purport to read minds. But many actual scientists are moving neuroscience forward, paper by paper.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=brain+computer+interface+hype

    There are certainly companies and individuals who are making extravagant marketing claims about BCI futures. OpenBCI is not in that category. Our primary audience are Makers, education, research, etc. All people who want to BUILD something to learn. Not looking for packaged wonder-toys.

  • wjcroftwjcroft Mount Shasta, CA

    https://docs.openbci.com/citations

    OpenBCI Citation List

    Here is a list of research papers and articles that have used OpenBCI hardware and software for their research.

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